Thoughts on Vampirism

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finajk	Thoughts on Vampirism	Lead	[-]
Posts: 168 (04/29/08 11:46 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Tags : None This started in another thread, but was very much off topic over there, so I'm starting a new thread. (with an extremely long post!) To recap what's been said so far: enibelle said: ...b) wondering why Josef has agreed so fast even though his attempt to turn Sarah didn't work out as planned ... stephanierb said: I thought the same thing about Sarah's turning, but assumed that Josef has turned a number of people over the years and his experience with her was a fluke. At least, that's how I wanked it. I hated the whole vamp coma thing, I thought it was pretty weak, particularly since it was already established how easy it is to turn someone. Anyway, I think part of the reason Josef so readily agreed to turn Mick is because he understands Mick's love for and devotion to Beth. Given his own experiences with Sarah, I think Josef understands that limits that someone will go to to protect someone they love. He knows Mick is going to rescue Beth, vamp or not, and Josef realizes that he'll die doing it without vamp strength. The show doesn't explore the depth of feeling that Josef has for Mick, but we know it's there and I think that heavily influenced Josef's decision to turn Mick. finajk said: As far as the speed of Mick's turning, or why Jason agreed after what happened with Sarah - remember Mick was still in fact a vampire. Coraline specified that the "mortal cure" supressed the vampire symptoms for a while. He would at some point revert to his "normal" state. Therefore, the new turning would work to remove the Cure and enable Mick's normal state to reemerge earlier than it would otherwise, but he would have reverted one way or the other. I just think it would be interesting if they had carried this further, and had the Cure effect Josef in some fashion since it was in the blood he drained from Mick! stephanierb said: If Josef was just removing the cure and returning Mick to his normal state, then I don't understand why he said "Come on" to Mick as he was feeding him his blood. If Mick was still a vampire, then there should've been no risk in his turning. This brings up the issue of the nature of vampirism in the Moonlight universe. How can Coraline's explanation be true? Mick can't be both human and vampire. The cure either made Mick human or it didn't. If all it did was suppress the symptoms of vampirism, then Mick would be dead. Vampirism was what was keeping him alive. The cure had to have greater efficacy then that if it was to work at all. But if the cure actually cured him, then how would he revert to being a vampire? Are we to believe that vampirism is somewhat like cancer, with cells being killed by treatment only to return years later? finajk said: I agree it is very fuzzy logic, and I'm not quite sure how they think it all works, but I'm basing my statement that it is only temporary and only supresses the symptoms of vampirism from this part of "The Mortal Cure": MICK: So there is no real cure? CORALINE: The cure is mortal itself, it's only temporary. MICK: Well, what is it? Where does it come from? CORALINE: It's an organic compound developed by a noble bloodline in the 18th century from local plants. In this noble bloodline, there were seven brothers, all turned by the same sire: a cousin of King Louis XVI. FLASHBACK - [18TH CENTURY] .... (snipped description of flashbacks & explination of testing for vampires in 18th century) CORALINE: The compound temporarily masked the characteristics of vampirism. It allowed those who took it to pass the test. Trasnscript referenced from moonlight-love.com stephanierb said: Yeah, I remember her saying that in the episode. And I didn't think about it until you mentioned it here and it made me think. Your comment makes sense in the context of what has been stated about the cure, but overall it's as you noted, fuzzy logic. I'm intrigued. I'm also intrigued. So here is stream of consciousness as I look though the scripts for any clues: From Dr. Feelgood MICK: That goes against every rule we have. A sire has to be responsible for whoever they turn, help them through the transition. GUILLERMO: I hardly remember anything from when I got turned. I was too out of it. MICK: I remember the rage, the need to satisfy a hunger that I didn't understand, and what it felt like to feed for the first time. We've got a rogue on our hands. The way to find this guy is to find his sire. So, normal turning is followed by being "out of it" and incredible hunger... herm... I'm not sure this describes Mick in "Fated to Pretend" From Dr. Feelgood MICK: Okay. You still wanna know how someone becomes a vampire? Well, first you have to reach a point near death. Then, the vampire, your sire, feeds you their own blood. ------- (snipage) MICK'S VOICE OVER: The first thing a newly turned vampire needs to do is feed. Problem is, if you don't know what you're hungry for, you'll try anything, and really, you're only looking for one thing: blood. Well, Mick has an advantage here - he knows what he's hungry for. From Dr. Feelgood JOSEF: Yeah, well, the blood loss can be really heavy when you're first turned, and you can really lose it. I know I did. Damn, those were good times. MICK: You know, a newly turned vampire is like a feral kitten. If you don't socialize it within the first few days, it's never gonna be able to live with humans. ------- (snipage) GERALD: Drained him, I'm afraid. It was just an accident; I don't ordinarily feed on humans. I was just desperate and I...look, I called The Cleaner as soon as I got home! She should've disposed of the body, so... MICK: Did you check if the guy was dead before you left him there? GERALD: Yes, of course I checked, I mean, he wasn't moving. Why wouldn't he be dead, right? MICK: You screwed up. Some of your blood got into his system. You didn't kill him, you turned him. Then you left him there by himself, not knowing what he was and not knowing what to do. Now he's out there killing people. ------- (snipage) MICK: New vampires crave blood. Where better to find it than a hospital? We get it, newly turned vampires crave blood! From Dr. Feelgood GERALD: I'm sorry; I wasn't completely honest with you. I did remember the doctor's license plate; I am good with numbers after all. Please understand, I was never able to sire before. This mistake has given me something I've never had: a son, a companion. I won't let you take him from me. Ah - this is very interesting! This implies that being able to sire really isn't all that easy after all, for all we've seen of the possibilities of "accidental turnings"... from Sleeping Beauty JOSEF: Yeah. She'd been begging me to do it for months. I didn't want to, but she wouldn't let it go. She knew that was the only way we could be together. So, I tried. I drained her, I fed her my blood, but it didn't work. She never came out of it. She got lost somewhere in between. Which, apparently, explains Sara. Looking at the "cure": From Love lasts Forever (assessing the sample of Coraline's "human" blood) MICK: What do you-what do you mean nothing? Pharmaceutical drugs, traced botanicals, additional hormones? DR. LIN: There's nothing in there that's not supposed to be. MICK: What about unknown substances? Something y-you couldn't identify? DR. LIN: Nothing. Not even caffeine. The sample was essentially untainted. I assume it came from a child? MICK: No, why? DR. LIN: That's surprising. As we get older we tend to accumulate toxins. That blood is pure, almost like new and based on the levels of free radicals I was positive that was a child's blood sample. ------- (snipage) DR. LIN: Eh, one more thing. I said there was nothing unusual in the toxicology. The blood type however is rare. MICK: How rare? DR. LIN: Extremely rare. Less than one person per million has it. Type- BETH: A-O Negative. Is the rare blood type related to the cure? or is it just that Coraline liked snacking on her own blood type, and that's why she snatched Beth all those years ago? from The Mortal Cure SCIENTIST: I'm not sure. I extracted a cell from the compound. I cloned it, then injected it into the cell structure of a plant from the same phylum as the extinct species. ------- (snipage) MICK: So there is no real cure? CORALINE: The cure is mortal itself, it's only temporary. MICK: Well, what is it? Where does it come from? CORALINE: It's an organic compound developed by a noble bloodline in the 18th century from local plants. In this noble bloodline, there were seven brothers, all turned by the same sire: a cousin of King Louis XVI. ------- (snipage) CORALINE:The compound temporarily masked the characteristics of vampirism. It allowed those who took it to pass the test. ------- (snipage) CORALINE: You put it into an open wound and let your body absorb it. MICK: Is there any chance that this cure could be intensified to be made permanent? CORALINE: That's what I've been trying to do, but I haven't been successful. ------- (snipage) MICK: It's not healing. CORALINE: This is how it works. It starts from the wound and then it just spreads throughout your whole body. ------- (snipage) MICK'S VOICE OVER: I've waited to feel human for a long time. But I forgot how painful it can be. [He draws some of his own blood]. With Coraline and what's left of the cure gone, my blood is the only link I have left. If they do something in the upcoming episodes that says the "cure" is in this sample of his "human" blood that he has taken, I've got a major question - Why would it not effect Josef when he drained Mick? From Fated to Pretend BETH: How long will it last until you turn back? MICK: I don't know, six months, maybe. Maybe less. But I'm making everyday count. I don't wanna have any regrets. I'm really glad you called. And we all know it was actually much shorter time than that. I do have some interesting ideas buzzing after looking at all this. One of the most interesting comments I found was this: From Fever MICK'S VOICE OVER: Blood is life for vamps and humans alike. It warms us and thrills us. Helps us heal. But vamps will always be jealous of the living. Like renters versus owners. You can make your own blood. We've got to beg, borrow or work it into the budget. There is one of the primary differences between human and vampire physiology - Humans have the ability to produce blood while vampires don't. Going to have to think on that. So, assuming anyone actually read to the bottom here - any opinions? What do you think happened when Josef drained and fed Mic - did he actually "turn" him? or did he just speed up the time of Mick reverting to his "natural" state by removing the blood that was "curing" him and replacing it with blood that would sustain a vampire? If it is the latter, why would that "cure" not then effect Josef himself? As a follow up question - do you think the writers have it figured out? or is this a case of the blind leading the blind to try and ponder questions like this? eta info from later episodes: From Click MICK: Well, you did turn me. JOSEF: Re-turned you. Re-turned. And you were gonna become a vampire again anyway. I'm not your sire. MICK: You're kind of my step-sire, though. JOSEF: No. ------- (snipage) JOSEF: And eventually he'll get a picture of Mick vamping or drinking blood. This whole digital revolution is bad for vampires. Back in the day, a photo didn't matter. BETH: Because vampires come out blurry on film? JOSEF: It's the silver in the emulsion. And all a blurry photo proves is the photographer's incompetence. So they have confirmed that Josef did not actually sire Mick, just infused him with enough vampire blood to cancel the effects of the Cure. The part about the silver in the emulsion relates to a long debate sorta like this back when episode two came out when people were trying to figure out hoe there was a photo of Mic in a book. & this confirms the conclusion that was reached. Last Edited By: finajk 05/06/08 9:13 AM. Edited 3 times.
p2880		#1	[-]
Posts: 122 (04/30/08 10:34 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	My thoughts about the cure: 1. The cure changes Mick's blood but doesn't stay the "cure" once it's worked its magic on Mick. So although Mick's blood may or may not have been changed it is no longer the cure. That's why Coraline couldn't use her own blood as the cure. or 2. The cure changes something in Mick, not his blood, to make him not a vampire. Are vampires the way they are because of just their blood? 3. Josef is not exactly Mick's sire --more like an uncle. Related by blood but not the one that originally turned him, although Josef then took over the paternal relationship-in a biological way. Thanks, finajk, bringing all the facts into one place!
stephanierb		#2	[-]
Posts: 79 (04/30/08 10:48 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Great idea, finajk. I love discussions like this. From Dr. Feelgood MICK: That goes against every rule we have. A sire has to be responsible for whoever they turn, help them through the transition. GUILLERMO: I hardly remember anything from when I got turned. I was too out of it. MICK: I remember the rage, the need to satisfy a hunger that I didn't understand, and what it felt like to feed for the first time. We've got a rogue on our hands. The way to find this guy is to find his sire. So, normal turning is followed by being "out of it" and incredible hunger... herm... I'm not sure this describes Mick in "Fated to Pretend" This is an interesting point. Mick seems to adjust to being newly turned (again) very quickly. I'm assuming that he fed immediately, as he still seemed to have a supply of blood in his refrigerator and that his memory of being a vampire previously helped stem the confusion and fear. Otherwise, he would've been pretty useless. Here, Coraline's description of the cure does explain how easily Mick adjusts to being a vampire again. If he indeed was still a vampire and Josef's "turning" just served to reawaken him, so to speak, then he wouldn't experience all of the normal side effects of being turned. From Dr. Feelgood GERALD: I'm sorry; I wasn't completely honest with you. I did remember the doctor's license plate; I am good with numbers after all. Please understand, I was never able to sire before. This mistake has given me something I've never had: a son, a companion. I won't let you take him from me. Ah - this is very interesting! This implies that being able to sire really isn't all that easy after all, for all we've seen of the possibilities of "accidental turnings"... Gerald's statement can be interpreted in a number of ways. When he said he wasn't able to sire before, did he mean he was physically incapable, or did he mean he'd never been successful? I think it's pretty reasonable to believe that many attempted turnings go bad - too much blood is drained, the blood isn't fed in time, the timing is just off - and that could explain why Gerald could never sire. It seems to me that turning requires a degree of finesse and so some vampires might not be as good at it as others. But the fact that this guy was turned accidentally indicates that it doesn't take much to make a vampire, you just need to do it, as Mick says, right when they're near death. My issue with Sara isn't that something went wrong when Josef turned her, that I can believe. It's that she ended up in some bizarre coma as a result. Sara dying because Josef got it wrong, that makes sense, but getting stuck in between? If all that's needed is one drop of vampire blood (at the right moment) to turn someone, then what could possibly explain her condition? If Josef drained too much, she'd be dead and his blood wouldn't do anything. If he didn't take enough, and she wasn't almost dead, then his blood wouldn't do anything. I could buy into this if more vampire blood was necessary to complete the turning, but that's clearly not the case in this universe. Looking at the "cure": From Love lasts Forever (assessing the sample of Coraline's "human" blood) MICK: What do you-what do you mean nothing? Pharmaceutical drugs, traced botanicals, additional hormones? DR. LIN: There's nothing in there that's not supposed to be. MICK: What about unknown substances? Something y-you couldn't identify? DR. LIN: Nothing. Not even caffeine. The sample was essentially untainted. I assume it came from a child?MICK: No, why? DR. LIN: That's surprising. As we get older we tend to accumulate toxins. That blood is pure, almost like new and based on the levels of free radicals I was positive that was a child's blood sample. ------- (snipage) DR. LIN: Eh, one more thing. I said there was nothing unusual in the toxicology. The blood type however is rare. MICK: How rare? DR. LIN: Extremely rare. Less than one person per million has it. Type- BETH: A-O Negative. Is the rare blood type related to the cure? or is it just that Coraline liked snacking on her own blood type, and that's why she snatched Beth all those years ago? The purity of the blood makes sense, if Coraline is newly human. What I find interesting is that she and Beth share a blood type. This is just speculation on my part, but I think this commonality between those two suggests that's there's something more to Coraline taking Beth than just chance. What if Beth and Coraline are related? It's possible that one of the brothers, or even Coraline, had a child before they were turned, thus continuing the human bloodline through their descendants. Though we haven't heard anything from her, I assume Coraline will be returning, and it's possible that Lance will as well. Beth being a relation would certainly muddy the waters and bring a new twist to her story, tying her even more closely to the vampire community. If they do something in the upcoming episodes that says the "cure" is in this sample of his "human" blood that he has taken, I've got a major question - Why would it not effect Josef when he drained Mick? That's a good point. I assumed that the blood that Josef took was fully human, and thus would have no effect on Josef at all. It's possible that even if the cure is in Mick's human blood, that it isn't concentrated enough to effect Josef. My guess is that the organic compounds would have to be extracted from the blood sample and then a new batch of the compound would have to be created. I'm thinking it would serve as a map or a guide to creating a new batch rather than another sample of the cure itself. There is one of the primary differences between human and vampire physiology - Humans have the ability to produce blood while vampires don't. Going to have to think on that. Well, vampires are dead so they can't produce blood. Their hearts don't beat, they don't breathe, their cells don't function. It hasn't been explained on this show what it is about vampirism that allows them to "live", but the bodies are essentially corpses. What do you think happened when Josef drained and fed Mic - did he actually "turn" him? or did he just speed up the time of Mick reverting to his "natural" state by removing the blood that was "curing" him and replacing it with blood that would sustain a vampire? If it is the latter, why would that "cure" not then effect Josef himself? Even after thinking about this post, and writing so much myself, I'm still not completely sure. But I am starting to think it was more the latter. I don't get how that works exactly, but in the context of what we've seen, it makes the most sense. I suppose there was still some risk involved in doing it that way, enough that Josef was concerned about trying it. As for its effects on Josef? I mentioned that above and I do think it's possible to explain how it wouldn't change Josef at all even though he took almost all of Mick's blood. Perhaps this will be addressed later on in the series, but I wouldn't be surprised if it isn't. And the writers? I don't think they know what they're doing. Or I should say, I don't think the show's vampire mythology has been established. We've already seen contradictions and loose threads and my guess is that they're just making it up as they go along and hoping the audience will focus on the overall story and not the details.
finajk		#3	[-]
Posts: 170 (04/30/08 11:11 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	STEPHAIERB said: And the writers? I don't think they know what they're doing. Or I should say, I don't think the show's vampire mythology has been established. We've already seen contradictions and loose threads and my guess is that they're just making it up as they go along and hoping the audience will focus on the overall story and not the details. Ya, I agree, and I'm fine with it not all being mapped out yet. I just hope that they work on remaining internally consistant and stick with something once it's been established as "fact", even if the logic that generated that "fact" is somewhat fuzzy. I'm much more willing to go with fuzzy logic in relation to the real world when it is consistant! STEPHAIERB said: My issue with Sara isn't that something went wrong when Josef turned her, that I can believe. It's that she ended up in some bizarre coma as a result. Sara dying because Josef got it wrong, that makes sense, but getting stuck in between? If all that's needed is one drop of vampire blood (at the right moment) to turn someone, then what could possibly explain her condition? If Josef drained too much, she'd be dead and his blood wouldn't do anything. If he didn't take enough, and she wasn't almost dead, then his blood wouldn't do anything. I could buy into this if more vampire blood was necessary to complete the turning, but that's clearly not the case in this universe. There's actually a really nice fanfic I've been following that follows the theory that Sara had silver in her tissues (from silver based medications of the time) which is what caused the problem. As a human, the dosage was low enough not to cause her harm, but as a vampire... coma.
stephanierb		#4	[-]
Posts: 80 (04/30/08 12:14 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	finajk wrote: There's actually a really nice fanfic I've been following that follows the theory that Sara had silver in her tissues (from silver based medications of the time) which is what caused the problem. As a human, the dosage was low enough not to cause her harm, but as a vampire... coma. Really? That's cool and would be the perfect explanation. I could definitely buy that. Where did you find this fic? 1. The cure changes Mick's blood but doesn't stay the "cure" once it's worked its magic on Mick. So although Mick's blood may or may not have been changed it is no longer the cure. That's why Coraline couldn't use her own blood as the cure. That's interesting p2880. The chemical composition of the compound changes once it reacts with a vampire's blood, and this reaction "cures" the vampire. Perhaps its an ongoing chemical process that gives back mortality, and once the compound loses its potency, the reaction ceases and causes the person to revert to the vampire state. I like it!
finajk		#5	[-]
Posts: 171 (04/30/08 1:44 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	stephanierb said: Really? That's cool and would be the perfect explanation. I could definitely buy that. Where did you find this fic? Here's the link: Redemption. Rated: M It's still a WIP, but I'm looking forward to the rest of it! I also like the idea that the cure is a chemical reaction in the blood wears off to cause the reversion to vampirism. Especially since Dr Lin said that Coraline's blood appeared to be that of a child, since it was "pure" and didn't have accumulated toxins. The compound cleans the toxins out of the system?
JaneDtwo		#6	[-]
Posts: 1359 (04/30/08 4:28 PM) A-Dohring Fan Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Wow, guys! Finajk, you deserve much kudos for putting this together. And stephainierb, too! I love this discussion and as soon as I have a little more time, would love to contribute! Great read and so much to think about.
stephanierb		#7	[-]
Posts: 81 (04/30/08 6:34 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	finajk wrote: Here's the link: Redemption. Rated: M It's still a WIP, but I'm looking forward to the rest of it! I also like the idea that the cure is a chemical reaction in the blood wears off to cause the reversion to vampirism. Especially since Dr Lin said that Coraline's blood appeared to be that of a child, since it was "pure" and didn't have accumulated toxins. The compound cleans the toxins out of the system? Thanks for the link! My theory would be that the compound acts as a catalyst for regeneration and cellular growth, which could give Mick brand new blood, as well as get his heart beating. My guess would also be that the reaction renders the vampirism dormant, or at least does something to counteract its effects. I'm totally pulling this out of thin air, but it works for me as far as explaining what the cure does. The more I think about it, the more I kind of hope Beth is related to Coraline. I have this idea that the whole vamp family will descend on LA, and it will be revealed that Beth is a descendant. Beth still has that vial of black crystal and that has to be revisited. Can you imagine how much that would mess Beth up? She would become infinitely more interesting to me as a character if that were to happen. JaneDtwo, I'm looking forward to reading your thoughts!
skyroom80		#8	[-]
Posts: 672 (05/01/08 11:30 AM) Member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	All of this is intriguing -- and everything said is plausible. I agree with Stephanierb that the writers need to be less sloppy in their establishing of the vampire lore for this show. Also, I nominate Finajk as the Moonlight vampire lore historian! All those excerpts from the different shows give a different perspective -- as well as bringing up new questions. Thank you for putting it together!
XiuFang		#9	[-]
Posts: 285 (05/03/08 8:35 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	This is an interesting discussion, once you manage to gather the courage to get past Finajk's adorable icon. Too pretty: can't look away! It seems like the writers are disregarding logics and coherence. It's supernatural stuff, so they probably figured they could pull anything off
finajk		#10	[-]
Posts: 178 (05/06/08 8:55 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Speaking of logics & coherance... Can anyone come up with a logical & coherant way a male vampire can actually have sex? Think about it - just how is that physically possible with a male body that has no heartbeat & therefore no circulation? Or do they somehow have circulation without the heartbeat? They do drink blood (which goes into their non-active digestive system) to promote healing - so there has to be something going on to get stuff to the right place. I know I'm picking at things, but I like sorting out practicalities - and identifying points where I have to say "leap of faith" to accept the fantasy. I'm OK with doing that - I just like figuring out just where I'm leaping from/to! eta - duh of course they have to have circulation of some sort - otherwise the blood in their veins would all pool at their feet. (or whatever point was lowest) (oh - & new icon ) Last Edited By: finajk 05/06/08 9:14 AM. Edited 1 times.