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Thank you, bfragrant.

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However, she also made some new friends in Piz and Parker.

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Ahm, I wouldn't call either one of them friends. She barely noticed Piz until he became useful as a distraction. And even then, while in a relationship, she barely gave consideration to what he wanted. As to Parker, she may have been a friend there for a short while, but come on! Once she started dating Logan, that "friendship" was done.

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Dad Keith lost his bid for sheriff to none other than Lamb...

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Ahem, wasn't that a season before?

As to "how much we liked Piz," Jennifer is right: most fans hated the dude.

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I know of one fanfic writer who's swung open wide that door (she should be posting the first part of her fic here soon and at The LoVe Shack) and it really does show that Rob did leave it open.

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Ahahaha! Subtle, Jennifer. Very subtle.

I'm posting, I promise! Also, not only did RT leave the door wide open, he also confirmed it completely on those DVD extras, when he discussed the LoVe relationship. He may have an extremely fucked up vision of a "rollercoaster" love, but it's official: he intended Logan and Veronica as the endgame. Which makes it easier to write fic, let me tell you.

Thank you, Skyroom! :)

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What bothered me most was that there was room in S3 (and even more if Piz had never entered the picture) for Veronica and Logan to move past the logjam of Veronica's stubbornness.

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This sums up my (and many other people's) main frustration with Season 3. Piz, etc., were mere symptoms. What was most buffling to me was the fact that with all the wealth of issues and history to explore and resolve inherent in LoVe relationship, RT and the writers chose to go with such cliche and artificial means as third party interference. The Pizes, the Parkers, the Madisons, what have you... Why was that even necessary, given what Logan and Veronica already had between and behind them?

I can actually step back now and understand that, considering what Veronica's been through, it wouls have been unrealistic to have her all issues-free and heart-open. I get that she doesn't so much deal with her pain as shoves it down and walks away. And that it catches up with her in form of the outward hardness and the kind of oblivious self-righteosness we kept witnessing all year. What I don't appreciate is the fact that it was presented as -- if not completely acceptable -- at least a perfectly valid way for her to be. Hense the widely-spred dissatisfaction with the character and the turn off people experienced at what she has become.

But I do see the room for growth. I am hopeful.

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But I still bought it. Bought that Logan who thought he had broken up with Veronica for good might have slept with Madison out of stupidity and because it would have meant nothing to him. Bought that Veronica would have a completely "irrational" and painful response to it. Her jealousy was well established and these emotions never have to make sense intellectually.

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Oh, that I buy, too. I get the irrational, and, to be fair, I think the show stressed specifically that she was being irrational. What with stealing a car, stalking Madison, involving Weevil in a criminal activity though the guy is on parole... None of these actions are justifyable from the logical and righteous stand point, and it was presented that way, too. So, yeah, I do buy the "temporary insanity." The problem that still remains is that the show tended to be extremely casual with its canon, not following through on many established things and downright re-writing its own history sometimes. This was just the last straw to many. But I do get that watching it as a whole, removed from the turmoil of the 3 years of the "roller-coaster," its a very different experience. More positive, and probably more cohesive, too.

Yep, the 3rd season as the favorite one? That's the worst. You are officially banned. LOL!

I sometimes wish I watched it all in one go, with no fandom interractions. Oh, well. :)

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Was Veronica lying when she told Logan that she and Piz did not hav sex dispite the nude cheerleader scene that was videotaped?

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There was -- as with a lot of things in that devisive season -- two schools of thought on that. Some said she was lying. Some, including myself, don't think so. That is, why would she? She is in the moment pissed as hell at Logan. Her instinct would be -- knowing Veronica and knowing how she operates -- to hurt him as much as possible. So, denying that the sex took place goes contrary to that. I'm guessing it was what is commonly known as "everything but." A sexual activity consisting of a lot except the actual intercourse. And in Veronica's extremely compartmentalized head it would constitute as not having sex.

I don't know for sure, of course. I don't think it was explained either way. As so many things weren't. But that's what I took out of it.

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Doesn't say very much for Piz, does it?

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Heh. True. Then again, nothing that we saw of him said much in his favor. Thing is, he was never a real character. He was always so schematic, a collection of traits. Someone's idea of a good college boy. We didn't get to know anything of substance about the guy. We had no idea of how he felt or what he thought about anything except for Veronica and a few random music choices. He's barely gotten screen time outside of that stupidly-forced romance. Really, if they wanted us to give a damn about him and/or the outcome of his relationship with Veronica, they should have bothered to give him a personality. Or a samblance of a storyline. As it was, the few substantial things that came out in the end about him weren't all that appealing. And were revealed too late to make a difference either way. What we have learned at last was that he was all talk and observation. That when it came to action, most he could master was a sucker punch. And for the rest, he wouldn't even stand up for his girlfriend but instead let "Karma" take care of things. Riiight. Stripped of its new agey trappings, Karma is just another term for "standing idly by." And hadn't Veronica had enough of that from Duncan?

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Veronica, when all is said and done, was wary of sex. Understandable, given what happened to her. She didn't go to bed with Duncan until she felt she might never have the chance (after the bus crash). She didn't have sex with Logan until after Season 2. It's part of her character and part of the issues she has trouble looking at.

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Absolutely. And on that note, I had such huge problem with the way the aftermath of rape and other sex-related traumas was handled on the show. Parker. Veronica. Even Mac. It's as if there was no aftermath at all. That is, there's talk a little. We get Mac telling Veronica about her therapy sessions and how she is "frozen from the waist down," and then, without any problem at all, Mac-the-virgin jumps into bed with Bronson with no discomfort. Worse still is Parker, traumatized one day, suddenly interested in starting a new relationship (with Piz, or later, with Logan, it doesn't matter). It's almost visible sign from Rob: Okay, we've indicated that those women are traumatized, and now enough already, moving on. Everyone, let's suspend disbelief and get on with it. Wouldn't want to bore anyone.

Rob Thomas is a good storyteller when he has enough time to plan a story out. Unfortunately, as a human being he is lacking in some very vital ways. And it sadly shows. But that's a whole other conversation. LOL.

Getting back to what skyroom said, Veronica is not comfortable with sex and sexuality. When she tries, consciously makes a decision to "go for it" because it's what she thinks she needs to do, it's always a visible effort and often comes out stilted and even grotesque. She overcompensates for the lack of feeling and passion. In fact the only times we see her comfortable and truly in the moment with it are the few times with Logan (most of them in season 1), where she lets go and just responds. With Duncan in season 2 it's all very deliberate, a choice made and followed upon, because that's what she thinks she needs. And there's certainly a familiarity there, a comfort that comes from "before." From the time when she was 15 and in love with this guy she thought was a wonderful prince.

And I am not even going to dignify this thing with Piz by analizing it. Suffice it to say, she forgets the guy even exists for most of the year. After he actually kisses her, she goes for it so clearly out of reacting to something Logan did and some stuff she saw going on around her at the party, it can't be spelled out any clearer. You practically see the wheels turning. And even after that she spends a day figuring out how to let the dude down easy. Her decision to give him a chance is just that: a decision born out of calculated thought process. There isn't a shred of love or desire for him displayed by Veronica, and nothing she says or does later convinces anybody but Piz. Even the infamous "sex tape" act is a result of her need to appease the poor baby for totally dissing him with her summer plans. It couldn't be less romantic, desire-fuelled or emotional if she has written him a check for his troubles.

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I really do miss discussing Logan and Veronica. They will always be my OTP!

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I third that sentiment. :) They are my OTP as well, and even if the show ultimately refused to delve deeper into what they had between them and what was holding them back from truly developing, it won't stop me from speculating. LOL.